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Noam Chomsky

NNEST of the Month
April 2010

chomsky [at] mit [dot] edu

Ana Wu, City College of San Francisco

1. Could you tell us how and why you decided to become an educator?

Dr. Chomsky: I didn’t really decide. It just happened, like many things in life.

Terry Doyle, City College of San Francisco (Questions 2, 3, and 4)

2. Your name is quite often mentioned in papers about the history of the NS (native speaker) and NNS (non-native speaker) dichotomy among teachers of ESL. For example, Braine (1999) writes “In language pedagogy, the linguistic authority of the native speaker has been further bolstered by Chomsky’s notion of the terms native speaker and competence.(p. xv). Canagarajah (1999) in his well-known article, “Interrogating the native speaker fallacy”, writes, “Noam Chomsky’s linguistic concepts lie at the heart of the discourse that promotes the superiority of the native speaker.” Such statements tend to attribute some responsibility or blame to you for the creation of the NNS-NS dichotomy and the native speaker fallacy. In my opinion, this blame is totally undeserved, especially when we consider how you have spent your life advocating for the rights of people who are economically oppressed. In a later article George Braine (2004) mentioned that you defined the native speaker as an “ideal speaker-listener” and therefore you use the term as an abstraction. Braine seems to allude to the fact that you had no idea that the abstract concept of “native speaker” used in your book Aspects of a Theory of Syntax would take on a life of its own. Could you tell us more about your notion of “native speaker” and “native speaker competence” especially in terms of its relevance to the NS-NNS dichotomy in English and foreign language teaching, the native speaker fallacy (Phillipson, 1992) and the discrimination and economic oppression this fallacy has resulted in?

Dr. Chomsky: I do not understand why I am mentioned at all in this connection. The “linguistic authority of the native speaker” was a truism long before I became a college student. The distinction between competence and performance –- what we know versus what we do -- should be a truism as well, but it has no bearing on the role of the native speaker, as far as I can see. My notion of “native speaker” is the traditional one, adding nothing new. I have no idea what the fallacy is supposed to be, or how these truisms might relate to oppression. I suspect there must be some serious misunderstanding.

3. My career in linguistics began in the middle 1970s as a graduate student at UC Berkeley in theoretical linguistics. At that time study in applied linguistics was just beginning, and it wasn’t a popular area of study for a young graduate student. Nowadays applied linguistics has grown enormously as a field of study, and it includes separately defined sub areas of studies including everything from applied semiotics to web based instruction, and of course includes non-native teachers issues, the topic of Ms. Wu’s blog. Your work in linguistics has been in theoretical linguistics, but applied linguists often mention your theories and your concepts. How do you explain this enormous interest in applied linguistics and especially sub areas of study such as non-native teacher issues? What do you see as the connection between theoretical and applied linguistics and in particular with the sub area of applied linguistics, non-native teacher issues?

Dr. Chomsky: I presume that applied linguistics developed because there was so much valuable work to do in these areas. Teachers are usually non-native. In the case of indigenous communities, very substantial efforts have been made to provide native speakers with the educational opportunities that would enable them to become teachers, develop educational and cultural programs in their own communities, etc., even in one spectacular case to revive a language that now has its first native speaker in a century (Wampanoag). I am keeping here only to my own department, since the 1960s, under the leadership of the late Ken Hale and now his students. I do not know what other issues there are about native/non-native teachers.

4. Most readers of Ms. Wu’s blog are probably linguists, ESL teachers, or ESL teacher trainers, so we know of your work first of all in linguistics. But for people outside of linguistics and language teaching, you are well known for your research and writing in political science, and especially your arguments for the relevance of an anarcho-syndicalism or libertarian socialism (Chomsky, 2005), which I greatly admire. My reason for asking you the question below in this blog is that I agree with critical linguists such as Pennycook (2001) who view “the inequalities in the relation between the constructs of Native and Non-native teachers” as one manifestation of power and inequality in the field of linguistics. Do you think that the study of political issues such as non-native teacher issues is an area of study for applied linguists, for political scientists, or both? What suggestion would you give to scholars and graduate students who want to study political issues such as non-native teacher issues and also to ordinary ESL teachers, like myself, who want to understand the significance of such issues to our teaching, our profession, and our ESL departments’ personnel and hiring committees’ decisions?

Dr. Chomsky: I do not understand what the “non-native teacher issues” are. The important issues seem to me those I mentioned above.

Ahmar Mahboob, University of Sydney (Questions 5, 6, and 7)

5. In your work on language, you prioritize the formal properties of language in favor of its functional properties (cf work my MAK Halliday and colleagues). While we see that both of these approaches serve useful purposes, we were wondering how they relate to the field of language teaching and learning. How do you see these two approaches to language (formal and functional) in relation to work in the area of language teaching and learning?

Dr. Chomsky: Halliday and others apparently see a conflict between those approaches. I have never seen any. My own work, and that of my colleagues, is both formal and functional. So is Halliday’s, as far as I understand it. There are differences in approach, as one would expect in a complex array of disciplines, but not along this divide, as far as I can see.

6. The use of the concept of a ‘native’ speaker is somewhat understandable in contexts where linguists are trying to study how monolingual speakers of a language construe and realize their language. However, this notion of a ‘native’ speaker is often used in Applied Linguistics and TESOL literature/research as well. How do you evaluate the use of this term in these contexts?

Dr. Chomsky: It should be used where it is relevant. Again, I do not understand the issue.

7. Language descriptions are typically based on language data/intuitions collected from monolingual speakers of the language. Now, we know that the majority of the people in the world are bi/multi-lingual speakers of the language. Are their intuitions not important for describing languages? This becomes quite important in contexts where these ‘monolingual’ descriptions of the language are considered ‘standard’ and other dialects are measured in relation to them (such as in the context of language teaching/learning/assessment). What are your views on the use of native speaker intuitions in language descriptions that are used in language teaching/learning?

Dr. Chomsky: If someone is interested in Spanish, they will not use me as an informant, but rather a native speaker of Spanish, evidently. It is quite true that multilingualism is common -– in fact, ubiquitous if we study individuals very closely. It is an important topic to study. The notion of “standard language” is not a linguistic notion. Rather, it reflects structures of power and authority.

Jayashree Mohanraj, The English and Foreign Languages University, Hyderabad

8. Entry of English in multilingual countries is gradually and systematically eliminating smaller local languages. Please comment on the hegemony of English.

Dr. Chomsky: That’s true, and it is one aspect of a much broader development. Imposition of the nation-state system in Europe, for example, has led to rapid disappearance of languages, a process still continuing. The spread of English reflects obvious power relations. As I mentioned, my own department has been intensively involved in preserving, in fact resurrecting, indigenous languages and cultures. A great many factors enter into broader decisions -– for example, should efforts be made to preserve the many languages of Italy (called “dialects,” though they are often mutually incomprehensible), or should the spread of a common “Italian” be encouraged. There are no simple formulas for every situation.

Daniel Steve Villarreal, University of Texas at Austin:

9. Does your Universal Grammar theory draw on the work of Karl Jung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Unconscious)? Thank you

Dr. Chomsky: I’ve occasionally mentioned some rather loose analogies, nothing beyond that.

Ana Wu: I'd like to thank Dr. Chomsky for this interview. When I sent him the invitation to be a guest in our NNEST of the Month blog, Dr. Chomsky said that he was utterly deluged with interview requests, and couldn't possibly keep up with more than a fraction. Yet, he graciously agreed on an interview at my proposed deadline. Personally, working with him was not just a pleasure, but a great honor and unforgettable experience.

References

Braine, G. (1999) Introduction. In Braine, G. (Ed.) Non-native Educators in English Language Teaching. Mahwah, New Jersey: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Publishers.

Braine, G. (2004) The nonnative English-speaking professionals’ movement and its research foundations, In Kamhi-Stein, L. Learning and Teaching from Experience: Perspectives on Nonnative English-speaking Professionals. Ann Arbor: The University of Michigan Press.

Canagarajah, S. A. (1999) Interrogating the “native speaker fallacy”: Non-linguistic roots, non-pedagogical results. In Braine, G. (Ed.) Non-native Educators in English Language Teaching. Mahwah, New Jersey: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Publishers.

Chomsky, N. (1965) Aspects of a Theory of Syntax, Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press.

Chomsky, N. (2005) Chomsky on Anarchism. Oakland: AK Press.

Pennycook, A. (2001) Critical Applied Linguistics: A Critical Introduction. Mahwah, New Jersey: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Publishers.

Phillipson, R. (1992) Linguistic Imperialism. New York: Oxford University Press.

John Liang

NNEST of the Month
March 2010
john [dot] liang [at] biola [dot] edu

Ana Wu: Could you please tell us a bit about your linguistic, academic and professional background?
Dr. Liang: I am originally from China. I grew up speaking three languages in China: Mandarin, Hokien, and Cantonese. As for foreign language, English was my first and Japanese my second. (I have to say, though, I can now speak only a little Japanese.)

I came to the U.S. to pursue graduate studies a year after I graduated from college. I received a B.A. in English from Jinan University, Guangzhou, China, and I received an M.A. in English from Indiana University of Pennsylvania, Indiana, Pennsylvania. In 1997, I obtained a Ph.D. in Foreign Language Education with a concentration on TESL from the University of Texas at Austin.

Soon after I finished my doctoral studies, I joined University of California, Riverside and supervised the university’s ESL program in the Learning Center. I joined the MA TESOL program at Biola University in 2001, and have ever since then been doing teacher training in TESOL.


Ana Wu: In one of your workshops, you said that Chinese people would compliment on your English and ask why you did not go to an MBA program. How did you respond to this compliment? Why did you decide to become an educator?
Dr. Liang: While in graduate school in the U.S., many of my Chinese friends complimented on my English communication skills. Some of them couldn’t understand why I would pursue studies in English rather than seek training that is more practical, like an MBA degree. I don’t blame them. For many of my Chinese friends, they didn’t choose their field of studies because they were interested in it or were passionate about it. Rather, they chose it because it could easily help them land on a job. At that time, many of my Chinese friends chose either business or computer science – whether they liked it or not.

For some time, I was really seriously considering changing my career choice as well. I had a lot of doubt of my credibility as a non-native speaker of English. In fact, many of my friends laughed at me when they heard that I was studying English. Their comment, though not friendly at all, sounded realistically correct! Why would an ESL program hire a non-native speaker of English to teach English? One day, a very close friend of mine, who was also an administrator of an ESL program, confided that if he had an interview with me on the phone, he would hire me right away since he could barely detect any sign of non-native accent. But if it was a face-to-face interview, he would hesitate since my skin color had betrayed my true identity – I am not a Caucasian.

While I was thinking about switching to pursuing a business degree, I received a postcard from a past student of mine in China. In the postcard, she said that at their graduation party a classmate of hers commented that I was her only best college instructor in her four years of studies and she really benefited a great deal from my classes. That postcard was a timely note of encouragement. As I revisited my decision to come to the U.S. for graduate studies in English and language education, I found renewed strength. I came because I wanted to be better trained in the language and language pedagogy so I could return to be a better language teacher. That postcard marked a turning point in my teaching career and teaching life. It affirmed my passion! At the same time, I remembered another encouraging comment by a young Canadian English professor I enjoyed in one of my college English classes back in China. He wasn’t really religious, but in one of his class meetings, as he explained the difference in meaning between the two words, “confidence” and “faith,” he commented that one shall live by faith – with a belief in something that is invisible but you know is there – rather than live by sight, such as by confidence as a result from knowing that you are for sure capable of doing something. I guess I made a decision to choose the English teaching career with a conviction coupled with my passion – I believed I could be a good English teacher that can benefit many even though I am not a native speaker of English.

Ana Wu: You came to the US for an MA in English, with a BA in English and Literature from China. As a graduate student, was it difficult to be accepted by the people surrounding you - Chinese and non-Chinese students and professors? Did you constantly find yourself changing roles and identities in order to be accepted among peers? How?
Dr. Liang: I am indebted to an American professor who taught me in college in China for her influence on my perspectives on cross-cultural identity. I remember one day when I told her on the phone that I was going to see her in her hotel room (at that time all of our English professors from America or Canada were given a studio in a university-owned hotel). To my surprise, she said that was her home. I said that her home was thousands of miles away in Chicago, on the other side of the Pacific Ocean, but to my further surprise, she commented, “Where I’m, that’s my home.” So, when I came to America, I said to myself, “This is going to be my new home, so I will need to learn to be an American in my professional life – while I will continue to remain Chinese in my private life.”

Also, as I had already been a bilingual when I came to America, I felt that a bilingual or multilingual and multicultural spirit would help me rather than inhibit my career development. So, in school, I was very open to making friends with my American classmates and with my international classmates from other countries, i.e. from Turkey, Palestine, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Japan, Korea, etc. I enjoyed spending time with them during the breaks and during the weekends.

However, it was interesting that while many of my Asian classmates were fine with me socializing with my international friends, some of them were upset that I got too close to my American classmates. One day, a Thai doctoral student came to me warning me not to spend too much time with my American classmates since, in her words, we are Asian not American. Ironically, one time I overheard a conversation between two of my Japanese classmates. The older student in her forties warned the younger one in her early twenties not to be too close to other international students and American students. While somewhat upsetting, these two incidents actually strengthened my belief in multiculturalism. As a teacher trainee, I needed to be open to different cultures as this would only enhance rather than inhibit our classroom teaching and it would increase my intercultural sensitivity as well as my intercultural understanding. So, I continued to socialize with both my American classmates and international classmates.

Ana Wu: You have been very active in the teaching field and professional organizations, specially taking leadership roles at the California - TESOL organization (CATESOL). Having served on the CATESOL Board in various capacities, what advice would you give to graduate students who seem themselves as NNES and want to pursue a fulfilling career as an ESL/EFL instructor?
Dr. Liang: As a language teacher, our teaching world is not confined within the classroom walls. Instead, it extends way beyond the classroom. This means while our students do represent an immediate teaching and learning community, as teachers, we are also members of a much larger community: a community of professionals that have the same kind of passion for the well-being of students. Therefore, connecting with this larger community is crucial to our professional growth. It will not only inspires us with new pedagogical perspectives but will also deepen our commitment and sustain our spirit of service.

Ana Wu: As an associate professor of Applied Linguistics and TESOL, training international graduate students, NNES and NES, what are the things that you do (if any) to address the needs and concerns of the international and NNES students? Why?
Dr. Liang: In my classes, I have both NES and NNES graduate students. While they have different needs, I don’t treat them differently in the sense that they both need encouragement, genuine care, and investment. When they are down or disoriented, or showing lack of confidence, timely encouragement helps them see their strengths in the positive light. Aside from verbal encouragement, your demonstrated passion for what you are doing represents another dimension of encouragement. Your sharing of your personal development and professional growth often makes good narratives that will renew their strengths and confidence. Furthermore, making yourself available beyond the office hours breaks the wall between the teacher and student, and creates a trusting relationship that enables them to be open to your advice and guidance. Last and perhaps the most important, invest in them. This can be accomplished by providing feedback on their work, spending time counseling them, offering advice on their classroom teaching and research projects, and guiding their preparation for professional work such as conference presentations. True investment motivates them and strengthens their determination to take on challenges. All in all, developing a trusting relationship with them is crucial to fostering their growth as a professional language teacher. These are the main principles I adhere to when I interact with our graduate students.

Ana Wu: Thank you for this interesting interview!